Joseph Smith said,
For the last few weeks, in several blogs and forums I've seen people saying "Satan this and Satan that". They have offered all sorts of philosophies, contrary to the established LDS doctrine, and while I've contemplated them a little, they all felt largely off. Until I could do some study, I didn't have any desire to buy into them, but put them on the back burner. Most of them didn't provide any scriptural sources, and I wanted to find some.
For days I've been trying to dig into D&C 76. I wanted to compare what's in my D&C to the one on the Joseph Smith Papers records. I checked my copy of Revelations Book 1, but it's not in there. Just happens to be at the start of Volume 2, which I don't have, but found online.
In comparing the two, I found (thankfully) the copies are largely the same, with only one or two word variations so far. So I'm going to direct the reader to D&C 76 to get some background, and point out the cause for which I felt to post this today.
Verse 19 points out that Joseph and Sidney were meditating. I used to think this meant studying and thinking, but having understood that meditation is actually something different, it gave new meaning to this. Joseph was acquainted somewhat to alternative theories. It makes me laugh a little, to think of him sitting in a pretzel with hands on his knees. I don't know that that was the case, but I suppose they were sitting quietly, in a meditative state, perhaps even trance-like, as Peter mentions in the New Testament (before he has his four corners of the earth vision). I have found that when I practice meditation – simple meditation – I have profound breakthroughs. Anyways...
Joseph and Sidney had their eyes of understandings touched and opened by the Savior. They then beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and they received of his fulness. This is huge. They are introduced to the Father. This is much like Lehi's vision in 1 Nephi 1.
Lest I get caught up and write endlessly on the few verses following this, I want to skip to the part that was the object of my study of this section. Feel free to pull out your scrips and find this one, if you feel so inclined.
They see Christ, on the right hand of the Father. They also see angels, and then they see this, all as one apparent being. I'm going to skip the nice ones, and go to the unenjoyable part. The qualities are thus, describing a being in opposition to the Father. This being was:
Following this they add:
Taking the many theories of others, and leaving open the room for discussion but ignoring their theories, I will make my own proposition. I will propose, just for this one post, that Satan and Lucifer just may be different – two, separate beings, just as the Father and Son are also separate (yet one). Lucifer was called an angel, and scripture tells us that when Joseph uses the words angel, he is referring to a resurrected being (sorry, don't have the quote but will come back to this later). Resurrected beings, Joseph describes, are those who lived or experienced mortality, and were resurrected. I don't know if Joseph via the Lord was using the term angel loosely here to mean an exalted-to-some-degree being, but I hope he was being clear, as it gives some clarification to make a more clear hypothesis.
To say Lucifer was thrust down from anywhere implies to me that he was higher than he could have been. I suppose he may have been a noble and great one, described in Abraham. "These I will make my rulers," (Abraham 3:23). If Lucifer had authority in the presence of God, he must have had some sort of area or group of intelligence over which to exhibit that authority. He must have been a leader of some sort, perhaps with his own sort of kingdom. He was mourned over. Interesting play on words – morning vs. mourning.
Let's look at Satan. Described as a serpent, an imitation of the Christ. I don't know much about this, but Christ was the original serpent, the ultimate symbol, which Satan counterfeited. (ie. Moses lifted up the serpent on the staff, to which the children of Israel were to look to and live.) So Satan is the knockoff brand, the cheap Foakley sunglasses. Not the real deal, and how sad. This being rebelled against not just the Son, but the Father and the Son. He wanted to overtake the kingdom of both Father and Son, and this being still makes war with the saints of God.
I would propose that the word "saints" has a bigger meaning here too. I propose these people are those who have seen the Lord, and been introduced to the Father too. They have much to lose, and great space to fall, just as Lucifer fell. So Satan harasses them in effort to add their added glory to his kingdom.
Verses 31-34 we learn those who fall to Satan's buffetings are called Sons of Perdition. Could also be considered "sons of Lucifer", if Perdition = Lucifer. It's interesting that in verse 33, it describes that these people are doomed to suffer the wrath of GOD, with the devil (Satan) and his angels (resurrected mortals who likewise fell).
I don't know. This sounds too much like a far stretch. Way too much of a stretch. The old paradigm is much easier to digest.
Verse 34, says these folks, these Saints will have no forgiveness in the world to come. Why? Let's look at their characteristics.
And repeating Christ,
Update: After posting this earlier today, I had a few questions come to mind. Primarily, if Satan and Lucifer are two separate beings, why did Joseph not clarify this? It seems like a pretty big piece of knowledge worth discussing. One blogger proposed that Satan is a woman. Again, if there is a female counterpart, why not delineate this? It seems that he gave us the basics, and from there, it's either a mystery, or perhaps extrapolation. I make no conclusions, just offer some food for more discussion or thought.
“… A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God.”Christ said,
"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?" (D&C 122: 7-8)Let's add 1+1. Joseph says we must gain knowledge, or evil spirits will know more than us. Christ says that experiencing basically hell on earth will give us experience for our good. I submit the proposal, or the = 2 part of the equation, that to understanding the adversary is something that while unpleasant, each man or woman must undertake, at least by summary, if needed.
For the last few weeks, in several blogs and forums I've seen people saying "Satan this and Satan that". They have offered all sorts of philosophies, contrary to the established LDS doctrine, and while I've contemplated them a little, they all felt largely off. Until I could do some study, I didn't have any desire to buy into them, but put them on the back burner. Most of them didn't provide any scriptural sources, and I wanted to find some.
For days I've been trying to dig into D&C 76. I wanted to compare what's in my D&C to the one on the Joseph Smith Papers records. I checked my copy of Revelations Book 1, but it's not in there. Just happens to be at the start of Volume 2, which I don't have, but found online.
In comparing the two, I found (thankfully) the copies are largely the same, with only one or two word variations so far. So I'm going to direct the reader to D&C 76 to get some background, and point out the cause for which I felt to post this today.
Verse 19 points out that Joseph and Sidney were meditating. I used to think this meant studying and thinking, but having understood that meditation is actually something different, it gave new meaning to this. Joseph was acquainted somewhat to alternative theories. It makes me laugh a little, to think of him sitting in a pretzel with hands on his knees. I don't know that that was the case, but I suppose they were sitting quietly, in a meditative state, perhaps even trance-like, as Peter mentions in the New Testament (before he has his four corners of the earth vision). I have found that when I practice meditation – simple meditation – I have profound breakthroughs. Anyways...
Joseph and Sidney had their eyes of understandings touched and opened by the Savior. They then beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and they received of his fulness. This is huge. They are introduced to the Father. This is much like Lehi's vision in 1 Nephi 1.
Lest I get caught up and write endlessly on the few verses following this, I want to skip to the part that was the object of my study of this section. Feel free to pull out your scrips and find this one, if you feel so inclined.
They see Christ, on the right hand of the Father. They also see angels, and then they see this, all as one apparent being. I'm going to skip the nice ones, and go to the unenjoyable part. The qualities are thus, describing a being in opposition to the Father. This being was:
- an angel of God
- who had authority in the presence of God (a BIG deal to have God's true authority)
- he rebelled against the Only Begotten Son, whom the Father loved and who was in the Father's bosom
- was thrust down from the presence of the Father and the Son
- was called Perdition, because the heavens wept over him
- also called Lucifer
- also called "Son of the Morning". (The scriptures do not capitalize this. I believe it is a title.)
- He is fallen, even a Son of the Morning. (This is obviously a big, big, big deal to have this title, or to have fit into this category of angels.)
Following this they add:
- they beheld Satan
- the old serpent
- even the devil
- who rebelled against God (thus far in the section, God is referred to as the Father. Christ is referred to as the Son.). Therefore, this being rebelled against the Father.
- he sought to take the kingdom of the Father and the Son
- he makes war with the saints of God
- encompasses them round about (harasses them ALL the time, all around)
Taking the many theories of others, and leaving open the room for discussion but ignoring their theories, I will make my own proposition. I will propose, just for this one post, that Satan and Lucifer just may be different – two, separate beings, just as the Father and Son are also separate (yet one). Lucifer was called an angel, and scripture tells us that when Joseph uses the words angel, he is referring to a resurrected being (sorry, don't have the quote but will come back to this later). Resurrected beings, Joseph describes, are those who lived or experienced mortality, and were resurrected. I don't know if Joseph via the Lord was using the term angel loosely here to mean an exalted-to-some-degree being, but I hope he was being clear, as it gives some clarification to make a more clear hypothesis.
To say Lucifer was thrust down from anywhere implies to me that he was higher than he could have been. I suppose he may have been a noble and great one, described in Abraham. "These I will make my rulers," (Abraham 3:23). If Lucifer had authority in the presence of God, he must have had some sort of area or group of intelligence over which to exhibit that authority. He must have been a leader of some sort, perhaps with his own sort of kingdom. He was mourned over. Interesting play on words – morning vs. mourning.
Let's look at Satan. Described as a serpent, an imitation of the Christ. I don't know much about this, but Christ was the original serpent, the ultimate symbol, which Satan counterfeited. (ie. Moses lifted up the serpent on the staff, to which the children of Israel were to look to and live.) So Satan is the knockoff brand, the cheap Foakley sunglasses. Not the real deal, and how sad. This being rebelled against not just the Son, but the Father and the Son. He wanted to overtake the kingdom of both Father and Son, and this being still makes war with the saints of God.
I would propose that the word "saints" has a bigger meaning here too. I propose these people are those who have seen the Lord, and been introduced to the Father too. They have much to lose, and great space to fall, just as Lucifer fell. So Satan harasses them in effort to add their added glory to his kingdom.
Verses 31-34 we learn those who fall to Satan's buffetings are called Sons of Perdition. Could also be considered "sons of Lucifer", if Perdition = Lucifer. It's interesting that in verse 33, it describes that these people are doomed to suffer the wrath of GOD, with the devil (Satan) and his angels (resurrected mortals who likewise fell).
I don't know. This sounds too much like a far stretch. Way too much of a stretch. The old paradigm is much easier to digest.
Verse 34, says these folks, these Saints will have no forgiveness in the world to come. Why? Let's look at their characteristics.
- They denied the Holy Spirit, after having received it. (If this were as simple as we all believe it to be, so many of us are in a LOT of trouble.)
- They denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father. (Interesting use of long title, the first time it is used in this section.)
- They crucified him unto themselves.
- They put him to open shame.
- They will go to a lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil (Satan) and his angels (resurrected beings).
- They are the ONLY ones on whom the second death shall have any power. (Second death is usually interpreted as death of the physical body.)
- Not redeemed in due time of the Lord after suffering his wrath.
- (Verse 45) Their torment is "everlasting", "eternal", where their worm dieth not, the fire is not quenched, where there is no known end. The end (which there does appear to be, because it is mentioned as existing) will never be revealed to man. And fyi, in other verses in the D&C, it is revealed to Joseph that "everlasting" and "eternal" are names for Christ. Perhaps this punishment may be equal to what Christ suffered, because these people denied what he offered. In essence, they denied his sacrifice, meaning they get to suffer for their own sins, of which God, being just, can not look upon with the least degree of allowance. Justice at its core.
- The end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof will not be understood by any except those to whom are ordained until it. (Description ends at verse 48.)
This is a really long explanation of the suffering of the Sons of Perdition. I submit these are mortals. They are the Saints who have met the Father (I believe, but could be making an assumption) and denied the Son. Interesting that they do not deny the Father.
I highlighted the two lines above because that is what stuck out to me the most, when reading all of this. The qualities of these folks are that they KNEW Christ. Most of us shriek in our hearts when we think of what the wicked Jews did to Jesus. It is truly horrific. But most of us have not seen this horror, except in our imaginations. But these people were received by the Savior, in this life. The veil was taken, they were received into His presence, and quite possibly introduced to the Father. The must have been shown in real life vision the crucifixion, and the events of Christ's life and also his forordination, so that they became witnesses in the flesh of the truth of it. And then they deny it as the sun at noon day.
In essence, they re-crucify him. They are trusted to come into his presence. They receive the full measure of the Holy Spirit, and are cleansed and purified, even sanctified (made Saints). They then yield to the buffetings of Satan, and deny what they saw. Satan wins them over, as they put the sacred, beautiful nature of what was revealed "to open shame".
Repeating Joseph,
“… A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God.”
And repeating Christ,
"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?" (D&C 122:7-8)
Update: After posting this earlier today, I had a few questions come to mind. Primarily, if Satan and Lucifer are two separate beings, why did Joseph not clarify this? It seems like a pretty big piece of knowledge worth discussing. One blogger proposed that Satan is a woman. Again, if there is a female counterpart, why not delineate this? It seems that he gave us the basics, and from there, it's either a mystery, or perhaps extrapolation. I make no conclusions, just offer some food for more discussion or thought.
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